OT: is it still a man's world?

K

kristina

Cathlete
I was wondering how many of the Cathe women still find Patriarchal tendencies in the workplace.

I am a paralegal and I note that when I wear a more trendy "aly mcbeal" outfit on days we don't have court appearances or hearings, male attorneys are nicer to me, but don't take me seriously and call me "honey" a lot until they realize I know of what I speak....
When I wear a more conversative suit, the men tend to be less friendly but take me more seriously. (cracks me up, I dress for me, just an observation)
When I wear hign heels (I am only 5' 3") I tend to get more respect...
The other day before a hearing, a male respondent attorney walked up to the female prosecutor (I work for the State Bar) actually RUBBED HER BACK and asked, "How are you doing sweetie?"
I thought she maintained herself well, but afterwards she was fuming (rightly so!)
I know most men are cool people, I am just wondering how many people still have anecdotes about similar experiences of initial stereotype rections to gender and appearance, thought it may make a good read (or perhaps Trevor has some man-bashing stories from women!!!) :)
 
I don't think that's ever going to change. Like you, I'm petite and have always looked young for my age. When I worked for a large ad agency, I felt I had to wear suits and heels to get taken seriously. I also found my long hair to be a problem. I had to keep it pulled into a low ponytail or put it up, or people would make comments about it.

On the other hand, I think we have to be aware of when we might be sending out the wrong signals - unintentionally. I have a friend who's boss constantly harasses her. Yet, she wears skin tight jeans and cropped shirts with a lot of make up and a sexy, just-rolled-out-of-bed hair style that seem more appropriate to the club scene.

Just my two cents...

Angela
 
I can really relate to your experiences Kristina. I'm an attorney. I'm also 5'3", blonde and look young for my age. When I was in private practice, I had a number of experiences where I felt that male attorneys (particularly middle aged and older) and clients underestimated me because of my appearance. There was also a judge that always called me little lady. He was about 80 years old and I don't think he could remember my name.

Now I work for the state and I work as a hearing officer conducting hearings by phone so the parties don't see me. However, I still get people who call me honey or dear and I have to admonish them. It always amazes me that they would call the person adjudicating their case honey but it happens. I've also had male parties be upset that they have a female hearing officer. I've actually had people ask if they can have a man hear their case.

I've also had several people ask to speak to the hearing officer after I have clearly identified myself as the hearing officer. When I repeat that I am the hearing officer they will tell me that they thought I would be a man. Surprisingly it is normally women who do this.
 
Yes, I've experience this too. If I dress up nice with form fitting clothes, I get more attention than if I dress down. But I never get disrepected. Well, except this one old man, but I ingore him.
 
Hi Kristina!
I'm gonna get in trouble here but what the heck. Just remember that I consider most, if not all of you Cathe-gals, my online fitness and small talk buddies so please go easy on me! :)
I sure as heck wouldn't touch another woman and call her "sweetie" the way you described. It's disrespectful. And the word "honey", do people still use that word outside of talking with their spouse or significant other? Another disrespectful action.
It's unfortunate for alot of women who do not want the attention that we men are picture oriented creatures who are easily worked up when nice looking, well-dressed women come into view. It's biology just as most women seem to want intimacy, cuddling, romance, etc. more than guys do...in general. Alot of men need to learn self control and appropriate ways of treating women. It's not easily turned on and off though, despite what alot of women seem to think. I'm a guy and I know. I get worked up just seeing the women on this site discussing thongs!!!.....just DISCUSSING them!! No pictures involved.....they are all mental pictures. But still, they affect me on a more primal level I guess. Your trendy outfit versus your conservative outfit is sending out cues, like it or not, to the guys you deal with. The guys who cannot control their reactions to this are the ones designated as pigs by our society. And, rightfully so. You should be judged on your intellectual competence and ability to perform your job.
I'm surprised you get more respect in high heels to be honest. I see those and the first thing into my head is "sex". I'm being honest!
I am a blonde male and I feel that hampers me at times. I am the only blonde male in our two buildings, if you can believe that. I feel the women here don't respect me at times because of that. They see blonde hair with tan and think beach bum!! I'm sure of that!
Some women, and I think all of them work here, know how to manipulate guys by their dress so I see that as well. One gal has allowed the thong to show thru the pants, uses the most amazing pushup bras you'll ever see, and brushes lightly against you when she wants you to help her with some work. So I see that side of it too.
Anyway, I'm sure I rambled but I am actually here at work so I should get back to it.
Please give me your thoughts ladies. I can take it! :)
Trevor
 
Trevor, I can see what you're saying. (No rotten tomatoes here!) I understand that men will think "sex" quite often when looking at women, even in the workplace. High heels, short skirts, push-up bras etc. It's embedded in males by nature to think of sex more often than women anyway - that's the way humans are built. It should be controlled - especially in the workplace. There's no need for men to rub our backs, call us sweetie/honey, not take us seriously. Just like there's no need for that woman to rub against you needlessly. And i'm sorry but that thong-visible-thru-the-pants thing is SO very wrong! THAT is why we have dress codes isn't it?!?! Ah well, just my opinion. There's a girl in my office who has done that more than once.. with a skirt. It skeeves me.

ChristinaK - I also can relate to women saying things like "I expected a man" and so forth. It's sad, but that's the way so many women are raised. I must admit to having been surprised to see a woman in certain roles throughout my life... although I would never say anything. I worked in a hardware store for 4 years part time in college and there were a LOT of guys coming in who would not hesitate to ask for a man to help them. Some of them learned eventually that I DO know what I'm doing after working in that store for so long... but they just had to learn it for themselves. What surprised me was all the WOMEN who asked for men to help them... eventually it stopped surprising me but would always piss me off. It seems like a betrayal to our cause, our fight for equality. I realize though that there ARE in fact much more men who are handy in the hardware biz than there are women. It is just not as common for a woman to be able to fix the leak in the sink or install a garbage disposal. Not saying that NO women can, just that boys are typically raised to do the fix-it jobs, and girls don't learn it. So I shouldn't wonder so much why people would trust a man more for that type of thing... until they can see it for themselves.

Whoa... I just looked at how much I've written and how unrelated it's getting from the original topic... sorry!
 
Hi, Kristina! Interesting question . . .

I too am a paralegal, and work with a team of attorneys in the area of criminal prosecution matters. The team I work with is about 50/50 male and female, and I've never gotten any sense that their behavior changed toward me when I wore business suits (which I only do if I'm under subpoena and may have to testify in a hearing or trial) versus my more "office-casual" attire.

I think behaving differently to professionals based on their gender will never change. And I've seen that women professionals treat males and females differently too; men aren't the only "guilty" parties here. I have indeed seen women dress more revealingly in the workplace, and then act truly shocked when men respond to that; I've also seen women treat good-looking men like bimbos and whores in public as well.

Unlearning the stereotypes of the gender of professionals is hard; I still find myself using the masculine pronoun when generally speaking of attorneys, judges, doctors, engineers, etc., and using the feminine pronoun when speaking of nurses, legal assistants, etc.

I think it's less of a man's world IN AMERICA than it used to be, and it will continue to be less and less so as society advances, but we ain't there yet.

Annette
 
RE: One more thought . . .

I'll say this much, and I don't care if I get flamed for it (as flamed as one can get on this courteous forum):

Women, in my experience, are just as guilty of treating other women differently / less respectfully as men are in the workplace, particularly if there's also a difference in power and authority. There may not be the sexual element, but there's usually more dismissiveness, micromanagement, or just a general lesser attitude of respect from woman to woman.

And women, very frequently, are viciously competitive with each other when there's a peer relationship.

You know what? Just like men! In America, part of the outcome of increased empowerment for women is that they can increasingly behave like jerks!

Annette
 
Trevor!!!!!

You're ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!! Everything you just said was true. And I know I'm going out on a limb here, BUT......women KNOW men are "sight" oriented, plain and simple!! Shame on any woman who dresses provocatively in the work place which causes distractions to males (I'm thinking specifically of the woman you mentioned, Trevor, with the push-up bra, etc..). Intentionally or unintentionally......NO, it's NOT an excuse for men to act like pigs. BUT, let's face it, God made them to be VERY visual creatures. 'Nuff said.....

Hollie
 
RE: One more thought . . .

I'm really veering off-topic here, but you've definitely got a point about women being just as bad or worse. Women can be catty and passive aggressive. At one time, I worked for a large design/crafts corporation that was almost entirely all women. The upper management was all women except the very head honcho, whom none of us worker bees ever saw.

This had to be one of the most miserable, back-stabbing places I've ever encountered. I think you're right - women can be fiercely competitive and I think many times they're insecure, so they compensate by micromanaging and trying to make those around and beneath them look incompetent.

Angela
 
The worst part is that you cannot get one and the other together. If you get respect and they take you seriously, you don't get attention and they don't think you are sexy. It seems imposible to get both things at the same time... I hate that.

I am petite too and have long, brown hair. I work as a waitress and I don't use a short skirt for the same reason you say. I try to look very conservative at work. I don't want to offend any female client that is eating with her husband or boyfriend.

I usually dress normal. Between sexy and conservative. I try to create a balance and not to send the wrong message. What bothers me is that I have this innocent look on my face that makes many people believe that I am shy, and many people give me advise on how to do things as if I were a child.
 
Kristina, I am a female lawyer, 34, and the only female partner. My collections are the highest in the firm, and double that of some of my male partners. Despite my success, every day in small and subtle (and not so subtle) ways I am reminded that I'm a little girl playing in the boys' sandbox. My firm is generally a decent environment, but the whole legal culture is still in the 50's, eventhough most are smart enough not to verbalize it. I lost alot of weight in the last year and a half, and it is totally amazing how my male colleagues, including in my firm, other lawyers and even judges now treat me differently. HELLO BOYS!!!! It's the same brain in there, smart enough to kick your butts no matter how I look, or what I wear. Someday maybe the male population will evolve enough to grasp that concept and catch on to the fact that the girls are making the best sandcastles (No offense Trevor). Cindy
 
Trevor!!!! VERY WELL SAID!!!! You know my thoughts on harrassment, so I know you were looking to get "jumped on" by me. In this case, I couldn't agree with you more.

"You have within you more resources of energy than have ever been tapped, more talent than has ever been exploited, more strength than has ever been tested, and more to give than you have ever given". John Gardner
 
Hey Deb,
I was waiting for it! I'm actually disappointed so if you wanna jump me go 4 it!!
Trevor :)
 
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-02 AT 12:15PM (Est)[/font][p]I'm a female attorney, with long blonde hair that i always wear pulled back, very conservatively at work. I've been an attorney for 9 years, and cannot tell you how many times i've gone to depositions with my big briefcase, and have been taken for the court reporter. Not that there is anything wrong with that! but it just goes to show you that people (yes, men AND women - both the opposing attorneys and the secretaries) assume that since i am blonde, 5'6" and in relatively good shape, i couldn't possibly be an attorney.
also, when i call other attorneys, their secretaries will ask whose office i'm calling from and i say "my own!"
I get the dismissive looks from mostly older men who do not believe females should be doing a "man's job." I find, though, that the younger generation of men (20s - late 30s) are more likely to respect what i have to say.
Interesting thread!
 
No way! You were right on the money this time. Men are very "picture oriented" & when I'm looking to get a man's attention, I'll be wearing my thong panties so that they hang out over the top of my jeans! ;-)
 
RE: Attention vs. disrespect

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-02 AT 02:05PM (Est)[/font][p]Thanks for all the feedback, especially from those of you in the legal field. I am fortunate to work with a great team of attorneys, men and women, who treat me with respect and are also good friends.
You all make excellent points...there is a difference between tastefully flattering clothes and unisex or mannish dress. Doesn't seem fair attractive women have to go out of the way to "ugly up" or "de-gloss" to be taken seriously. I also believe that women can be very cruel to attractive women. That said, I love a compliment when it is done respectfully. I am not particularly PC or thin-skinned. Eg. The other day I wore a neutral tone blouse, skirt, and hose to work (it was 114 degrees outside). One of my male coworkers kept glancing sidelong at me all day (unusual for him) and then finally said, "I just gotta tell you, I keep seeing you out of the corner of my eye and thinkin' you are naked. It's not a bad thing...just distracting!" I was flattered, and took a mental note not to wear that combination again out of respect for him. On the flip side, after I spent 45 minutes on the phone with an attorney helping him out with a complicated matter, he says "You sound totally hot. Are you?" After a shocked second, I said, "If you like men." He didn't know what the heck to say. :)
 
My one-track, picture-oriented male brain just went into overdrive! Phew! It's getting hot in here! lol!
Trevor :)
 
Trev...

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON Jun-28-02 AT 04:12PM (Est)[/font][p]I have to go back to your first response here, you said you are blonde & get stereotyped as a beachbum--where are you from? Your profile doesn't say--state is enough. UPDATE THAT PROFILE MAN!!!

Deb
 
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